In 2022 the New York Times ran an enormous three-part series eviscerating conservative host Tucker Carlson for nationalism and racism and being “Trump’s heir.” But now that he’s rejected his Trump birthright over the Iran War, Carlson can be rehabilitated by the paper as an anti-war, anti-Trump voice, with Times interviewer Lulu Garcia-Navarro recognizing Carlson as “an object of a lot of fascination, continuing interest....the center of a lot of our cultural conversations.” And a convenient way for the Times to facilitate and widen the current conservative crackup over Iran and Israel. The transcript of the two-part, nearly two-hour interview by Garcia-Navarro appeared under the surprisingly friendly headline “What Does Tucker Carlson Really Believe? I Went to Maine to Find Out.” Garcia-Navarro set up the talk: Tucker Carlson has been at the center of our political conversation and conservative media for a decade now. Few media figures are more closely identified with the Trump era. His hugely popular Fox News show started just after the 2016 election, and despite being fired by that network in 2023, Carlson has remained a Trumpworld fixture, launching his own network, boosting Donald Trump on his podcast and at campaign rallies, sitting in Trump’s box during the Republican National Convention and attending his inauguration. Then, in February, President Trump made the call to attack Iran alongside Israel, a decision that Carlson is completely opposed to. He now says he regrets supporting Trump and has become a vocal and influential critic of the administration on his show. He also blames Israel for making Trump a “slave” by, as he characterizes it, pushing the president into war. Because of this focus on Israel, and his high-profile interview of the white nationalist influencer Nick Fuentes, critics have accused him of antisemitism. To understand this break with the president and more, I traveled to Maine to sit down with Carlson, and then we spoke again remotely a few days later... Her next sentence betrays the reason for this interview: Hanging over our whole two-part discussion was one central question: Will Carlson’s anti-Trump conversion last — and portend a wider cracking of the MAGA movement? Even though Carlson had been accused by some of a right-wing form of anti-semitism (the only kind the media finds relevant) Garcia-Navarro nonetheless greeted him respectfully and eagerly sought out details about the private talks between Trump and Carlson on Iran. A selection of the questions are in bold below, with Carlson’s relevant answers following. I want to get your perspective on this moment, on your evolution, your worldview. You recently made quite a dramatic break with President Trump over the war in Iran, and I’d love to hear about that. I want to start, though, in the lead-up to the conflict. You said that you spoke to the president several times about the plan to attack Iran before it actually happened on February 28. I'd love to hear a little about that. Was it just you and the president in those meetings? Can you give me a sense of what was going on there? Now the @nytimes podcaster Lulu Garcia-Navarro finds Tucker absolutely fascinating, since they looooove the idea of breaking 'MAGA' into tiny little pieces. Tell us more about how you disagreed with Trump on many phone calls! pic.twitter.com/g8wY4MtyVL — Tim Graham (@TimJGraham) May 4, 2026 Asked if Trump may have “underestimated the Iranians and what they might do in response to an attack, Carlson gave the provocative response the paper was likely looking for: “….this was not a normal decision-making process. And my strong impression was that Trump was more a hostage than a sovereign decision-maker in this.” Navarro pounced with follow-ups: Tell me what you’re getting at when you say the president of the United States, the most powerful country in the world, had no choice.....You said he’s a hostage just now. You told the BBC he’s a “slave” to foreign interests....I just want you to be explicit. Trump is being held hostage by whom? By Benjamin Netanyahu and by his many advocates in the United States. And we know that not simply because Trump started the war on Feb. 28, but because he couldn’t get out of it. He declares we’re having a cease-fire. Carlson engaged in more colorful commentary, insisting he finds Sen. Ted Cruz (R-TX) more “morally repulsive” than Nick Fuentes. It took a while for the interviewer to turn the conversation to race, the centerpiece of the paper’s hit pieces four short years ago. ....You’ve denigrated immigrants, saying that they make our country “poorer and dirtier and more divided.” You’ve long warned that immigrants are going to replace what you call “legacy Americans.” It’s quite the switch from May 2022, when the same paper ran its series “Tucker Carlson, American Nationalist,” from a ten-person research/reporting crew led by Times reporter and then-MSNBC contributor Nicholas Confessore. In Part 1 he called Carlson’s former Fox News Channel show “the most racist show in the history of cable news,” a story given Sunday front-page play. In Part 2, “How Tucker Carlson Reshaped Fox News -- and Became Trump’s Heir,” Confessore said his target's "turn to flagrantly racist ideas has baffled and saddened some longtime associates [at FNC]….” Adding to the hypocrisy, Confessore used Carlson’s anti-war stand to say Carlson "was roundly labeled an apologist and Putin cheerleader.” Today he's greeted respectfully for being anti-war, at least in Iran.